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Working with pulp

#1 2011-03-26 03:14:15

WillowleafArtistry
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Registered: 2010-05-01
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Working with pulp

I'm hoping to get into using pulp but am wondering about working time.  While using glue makes the pulp into "clay" for sculpting, glue also dries.  If I'm working on something large or intricate, or I simply work to slowly,  would the pulp not simply dry up and become unusable?  What do I do if this were to happen?  Once glue is added, it's not just a simple task of dunking it back in some water like with unaltered pulp, yes?  Doing so would simply ruin your "ratio" of glue, if you will, making the finished product less than optimal.  Will it store well in the fridge and for how long?


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#2 2011-03-26 11:39:47

dopapier
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Registered: 2004-12-04
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Re: Working with pulp

Pulp is slow drying so you don't have to worry too much unless the ambient temperature is high and the humidity low.  If you use plaster of paris as the filler medium it will harden more quickly.  Yes, it will keep, best if wrapped in plastic and in a fridge if the weather is hot.  Even thinly rolled pulp will keep for many days if it is between two sheets of plastic.
It is best not to use much thickness at a time.  Allow it to dry thoroughly before adding more.


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#3 2011-03-26 13:01:22

mavigogun
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From: Istanbul
Registered: 2009-04-22
Posts: 106

Re: Working with pulp

Depending on the pulp mix -the extent of adhesive- pulp can be re-wet to facilitate removal or minor repositioning; diluted adhesive may then be washed over the area to cohere what has been worked.

My primary pulp uses PVA and newsprint; it has kept in a plastic tub, unrefrigerated, mold free, for over a year (if anything, it has become slightly more homogeneous).   Any pulp I've used that included raw flour that remained wet soured within a few days.   The problem with thick PVA pulp is that it may dry relatively hard on the outside, trapping minor moisture within, greatly extending the drying/shrinking time.   What a joy to return to a heavily worked bit of sculpting -that you thought was finished- to find it looking emaciated.

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#4 2011-03-26 19:13:52

WillowleafArtistry
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Registered: 2010-05-01
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Re: Working with pulp

Well that's very good news!  I was thinking that too, mavigogun, of just "painting" on a layer of glue afterwards if it needed to be rewetted for some reason, to retain strength.  Very interesting that you've kept it mold free for so long!  I've read that you need to squeeze the water out very well before adding the glue, so hopefully I'll be able to avoid any internal moisture problems.  Thank you both smile


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#5 2011-03-27 09:33:59

CatPerson
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From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Working with pulp

"If I'm working on something large or intricate, or I simply work to slowly,  would the pulp not simply dry up and become unusable?"

You may be looking at a benefit as a detriment.  Try turning it around.

IMHO (well, IMO, anyway), a large lump of wet pulp is not something I want to keep wet.  I've always seen it as better to get the basic shape going and then get it started drying.  In fact, I would prefer it get completely dry, so it becomes stronger and more rigid.  Then I can add another layer, smooth it down and let it dry, too.

A big, thick, damp, gooey mass is extremely hard to dry thoroughly.  PVA adhesive, in particular, seems to form a sturdy skin on the surface, limiting how much moisture can evaporate from the mass.  Some people say they don't have a problem, but they must be doing something different. 

I made a great cat over a glass bottle... I think it was my first experiment with paper pulp and PVA glue.  How long could it take to dry in sunny Southern California???  Well, I thought it was dry, and it wasn't.  I guess the surface that was right against the glass didn't dry, due to lack of exposure to air.  I sanded the cat, painted it, sealed it.  It wasn't right away that the colors started changing, maybe a month.  The moisture had apparently worked thought the piece and mold was building up.  All the lighter colors became dark and murky.

So now I go with the 'Dry as You Go' Plan:  Apply, dry, apply more, dry more.  It's part of the PM Learn-As-You-Go learning process, I guess.

Sue

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#6 2011-03-27 09:49:00

mavigogun
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From: Istanbul
Registered: 2009-04-22
Posts: 106

Re: Working with pulp

@ Willowleaf: After looking at your work, I recommend that you investigate pulp painting/pulp stenciling- both seem well suited to your knotwork and stained-glass look.   Given your production considerations, pulp stenciling seems like a perfect fit.

@ Sue: What's in your pulp?   Even with pieces that took over a month to dry, I haven't had mold - save when using raw flour (never again).   Humm.... could have something to do with the PH of my water... or character of the paper used...

Last edited by mavigogun (2011-03-27 09:53:27)

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#7 2011-03-28 02:55:08

CatPerson
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From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Working with pulp

I was using pulp with PVA (white glue).  The outside was dry when I tried to dig my fingernail into it.

When the mold took over, I sawed the bottom of the PM off and then pried and ripped the body off the bottle.  The inside of the PM was black with mold.

IF I had designed it so I could remove the bottle when it was moderately firm, and then let it dry with the inside surface exposed to the air, I probably wouldn't have had the problem.

And IF I had applied thinner layers instead of a thick one, I probably wouldn't have had the problem.

The Benefit:  I DO tend to recognize a mistake when I make it again...

Sue

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#8 2011-03-28 06:47:04

mavigogun
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From: Istanbul
Registered: 2009-04-22
Posts: 106

Re: Working with pulp

What do you think accounts for my lack of mold, Sue?   What sort of paper did you use?   Tap water or bottled water?   Do you boil the pulp?   Was there anything besides PVA, paper, and H2O in your pulp?   What sort of paint and sealants were used?   How wet was the pulp when applied?

I boil paper in tap water, expel as much moisture as possible by pressing in a cloth sack, add PVA, and occasionally dry spachteling and bottled water.   I've had moist pulp stored in warm whether for over a year with no sign of mold.   What do you reckon accounts for the difference?   Some water has high levels of bacteria, regardless of chlorination... I would suggest it has something to do with inks from the newsprint I pulp, but have no issue with tissue based pulp, either.   I haven't tested the PH of my pulp... but doing so would be easy enough.   Curious...

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#9 2011-03-29 20:03:14

mavigogun
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From: Istanbul
Registered: 2009-04-22
Posts: 106

Re: Working with pulp

This mystery is growing mold.

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#10 2011-03-30 18:30:46

CatPerson
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From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Working with pulp

This happened a long time ago.  I don't remember the paper, but it could have been newspaper.  The water was probably alkaline (desert).  I don't remember if I refrigerated it or not.

When I ripped the piece apart, it was barely damp inside, but it was damp.  The pulp was thick, probably an inch (25 mm) or more in some places.

I am *assuming* that the glass bottle prevented the pulp from drying on the inside, and the PVA formed a 'skin' on the outside and limited the amount of moisture that was able to leave the piece through that skin.  And before it did, I painted it (acrylic) and sealed it (regular varnish).

I have heard of others who had fairly thick, flat pieces that wouldn't dry, and would continue to flex. Most used PVA glue.

Mavigogun, how thick are your pieces?  Is one side of the thick pulp ever against an impermeable material, where air can't get to it for moisture to wick/evaporate out?

Sue

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#11 2011-03-30 19:06:25

dopapier
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From: UK
Registered: 2004-12-04
Posts: 754

Re: Working with pulp

I'm on the east coast of England so it is not as wet as most parts.  Nevertheless I would never expect to create pieces with great splodges of pulp.  Build and dry in layers and all should be safe.


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#12 2011-03-31 03:24:45

CatPerson
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From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Working with pulp

Oh, DAVID!  You mean, Do It Right?!

Sue, in a snit

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#13 2011-03-31 03:44:01

WillowleafArtistry
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Registered: 2010-05-01
Posts: 23
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Re: Working with pulp

Interesting conversation so far.  It's good to know that the glue drying thing won't be an issue, and that it keeps pretty well, which was my original question in point.  Perhaps I should have been more specific that I plan to do pulp painting (without glue) and pulp "bas relief" (with pva glue) 2D sculpting, nothing large or 3D in nature. These items would not be very thick in the least, so the final drying and mold growth should not be an issue. (I hope!)  If I do make something 3D later on, the pulp would only be a final, thin overcoat (with glue) over an already dried form.  The time issue is simply a personal one, as I'm very OCD and even the smallest sculpting detail needs to be "perfect" and I could end up spending forever working on it, (like hours, seriously) so the pulp staying workable is important. =P


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#14 2011-03-31 07:04:23

mavigogun
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From: Istanbul
Registered: 2009-04-22
Posts: 106

Re: Working with pulp

Sue- I've cast material 3x3x30 cm laid to dry on marble (dry in about a week), and a larger mass over lacquered wood that took over a month to dry in summer.   One batch of paper and PVA pulp sat in a plastic tub wrapped in a plastic bag for over a year, mold free.   I don't doubt your experience at all- rather, I just want to determine what accounts for the difference.

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