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A ridiculous problem

#1 2010-11-22 01:53:58

WillowleafArtistry
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Registered: 2010-05-01
Posts: 23
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A ridiculous problem

I've been playing around with making some little hearts using lockets as forms and I've become rather frustrated.  From all my reading, it SHOULD be as simple as; tears strips, choose paste type, lay strips flat on object, dry, paint.  Except not. 

No matter WHAT I do, I absolutely cannot eliminate the strip lines.  They are clear as day.  I've tried layering the hand torn strips side by side, layering by overlap, a layer of paste over top the whole thing after strips are laid, several layers of paste, two layers of "emulsion" paint and *several* layers of acrylic, nothing works.  I simply don't understand why they're so obvious, when I've made the strips as flat as possible without having a steamroller.  I find this to be one problem that is never mentioned in any tutorial I've ever read.  So far I've tried using joint compound to make everything smooth but it is a serious pain in the butt and time consuming (although it *does* work).  I'm going to try making pulp tomorrow and see how that goes.

What am I doing wrong? o.O


War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left.

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#2 2010-11-22 02:30:28

paper soup
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From: Small Town Texas USA
Registered: 2008-08-10
Posts: 107

Re: A ridiculous problem

A coat of gesso goes a long way to smoothing out surfaces. Then of course you have to sand it, but will eliminate "strip lines". You can buy it at an art store, or you can make your own from chalk (or whiting). I buy mine at Sherwin Williams. Sprinkle chalk into a container with enough water to cover it. Don't stir, just let it settle for an hour or so. Then pour off the water (being careful not disturb the settled chalk) and add 1 tablesoon glue and a teaspoon of linseed oil. Mix until a creamy consistency. If it seems to thin, carefully stir in tiny amounts of chalk. Dries quickly, levels things out beautifully and is easy to sand to a porcelain finish.

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#3 2010-11-22 02:38:41

WillowleafArtistry
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Registered: 2010-05-01
Posts: 23
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Re: A ridiculous problem

I remember this past summer trying to buy a handful of new art supplies, and being told by the guys at Home Depot; "we don't sell any of this, go to Sherwin Williams".  Then at *that* store being told; "WE don't sell that crap either but those idiots keep telling everyone that we do and I don't know why!"  It was slightly amusing, if not a complete waste of time.

I've read that gesso is very brittle and cracks easily, is this true?  The joint compound I have is a type that goes on pink and dries white, which is neat, but incredibly tricky to initially smooth out before drying.  If gesso is better, I'm all for it. 

But this doesn't answer WHY I'm having this trouble when I've never read of anyone else having it, without the need for extra pasting, gesso or spackle at all  sad


War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left.

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#4 2010-11-22 07:52:50

CatPerson
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From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: A ridiculous problem

You're not doing anything 'wrong', it's the nature of the beast.  The lines form simply because of the difference in height of the paper layers.  Have you tried toilet tissue?  Try burnishing down the edges with the top of your fingernail.  I don't know for sure that it will work -- the only time I tried it the cat chewed on it.

The old-fashioned (read 'antique') rabbitskin-glue gesso cracks like crazy, I've heard.  Use the modern acrylic gesso, it's probably white acrylic paint with chalk in it.  It usually takes multiple layers, drying in between.

I've never gotten a really smooth surface with pulp.  It looks and feels smooth when it's wet, but when it dries it has a pebbly texture.  Haven't tried it with toilet tissue, though...  I wonder if you could make a kind of liquid pulp with it and PAINT it onto the form? 

Use a very fibrous paper?  Maybe the fibers will meld into the surface, or you can use them a design feature?

Small articles seem to be more obvious in their imperfections.

Sue

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#5 2010-11-22 12:26:53

dopapier
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From: UK
Registered: 2004-12-04
Posts: 754

Re: A ridiculous problem

If you haven't a steam roller, just wait until one passes down the road! lol
Seriously, you can try reducing or even eliminating the edges by:
1  Making sure all the edges are torn.
2  Using thin paper (if you use toilet paper, you will have to use Nives' technique)
3  Smooth down hard as you apply each strip.
4  When it is dry, apply some paste (not PVA) to the surface, leave it ten minutes then burnish it with the back of a spoon.
5  Finally, rub it with very fine sandpaper.
Good luck!
DavidO


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#6 2010-11-22 13:03:41

paper soup
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From: Small Town Texas USA
Registered: 2008-08-10
Posts: 107

Re: A ridiculous problem

I haven't had an issue with gesso cracking. The key is to make sure you are putting it over a dry surface and make sure it dries thouroughly before you apply another coat or paint. Also don't try to put too thick of a coat.
My local Sherwin Williams carries small pint/quart ? tubs of chalk (whiting, sash putty), but I got the manager to order me a 50lb bag of it (ran about $25)
I have had a lot of trouble with the drywall stuff cracking and chipping. One decent wack always knocks a chunk out of it. But of course a rampaging preschooler does that to lots of things in my house hmm

Edited to add~ The linseed oil is what prevents the cracking. It ensures the mix dries a bit slower and more evenly

Last edited by paper soup (2010-11-22 13:08:07)

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#7 2010-11-22 15:18:56

Patraw
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From: Michigan, USA
Registered: 2008-09-10
Posts: 151
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Re: A ridiculous problem

Light sanding (I usually use a nail file, the cheap, disposable kind) and smoothing with a woodburner usually completely eliminates them for me.  If you're using thicker paper, as has previously beens stated, it can easily make the problem worse, as the depth difference between strips is greater, and thus, more noticeable.

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#8 2010-11-22 17:05:01

Jackie
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From: England
Registered: 2002-09-14
Posts: 389
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Re: A ridiculous problem

I've always found sanding (like mad!) the only way to truly get a smooth finish. Its a nauseating job but pays great dividends.

A friend once made me a papier mache ladybird. He told me had sanded it and sanded it and sanded it....the result was a shiny bright red shell (he'd used car spray paint) that resembled the bonnet of a pristine, straight out of the showroom car.

I have used electric sanders occasionally on large items. It takes far less time but makes you deaf! smile


Jackie

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#9 2010-11-28 01:01:54

Pelletor
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From: East Coast USA (mid Atlantic)
Registered: 2009-08-05
Posts: 32
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Re: A ridiculous problem

When I use paper strips and paste I only have used newspaper with torn edges but have used both diluted PVA paste (2 parts PVA to 1 part water) and a thicker flour and liquid starch paste. ‭
(¼ Cup units were used in this case)
6‭ ‬Parts Gen purpose Flour
1‭ ‬part Liquid Starch‭   
1‭ ‬Part PVA‭ 
(‬Liquid Starch & PVA make Silly Putty so mix water, flour‭ and PVA 1st then add in the liquid starch.
2‭ ‬tablespoons of salt to avoid molding.  ( I always add this)
Add enough warm water to make a thin pancake like mix, ‬about‭ ‬6‭ ‬parts water.

The PVA + water paste shows seams but the thicker flour based paste does not.

If a smooth finish is required I use 3 parts joint compound and 1 part PVA for a thick "paint" like coating that sands very well (if applied too thick this will crack).  I will often tint this with 1/2 -1 part acrylic paint as well.

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#10 2010-11-28 01:49:25

CatPerson
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From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: A ridiculous problem

Salt may help prevent mold, but it is also corrosive.  It will even destroy concrete if mixed in.

Sue

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#11 2010-11-28 09:44:49

Pelletor
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From: East Coast USA (mid Atlantic)
Registered: 2009-08-05
Posts: 32
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Re: A ridiculous problem

Sue,

I have seen you mention this corrosion issue before, have you had problems with salt in your PM projects?

I'm originally from New England and the month of January of the year I moved South set a record for the most snowfall of 42".    I have witnessed 1st hand what salt can do to concrete roadways, bridges and the sheet metal of automobiles but it is also a common household ingredient and was often used as a preservative.   I have used it as a preservative in paste I make with flour for years because it is always handy, inexpensive and it has worked well in my experience with no sign at all of corrosion in the paper, paste, cardboard, plastic and acrylic/latex paint materials I have used thus far.

I also wasn't so much advocating its use as much as I was trying to be accurate describing the recipe I used just in case this slight variable could change the outcome if someone else wanted to replicate my successful results and didn't know about it being present in the recipe.   

Bob C.

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#12 2010-11-30 03:17:26

CatPerson
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From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: A ridiculous problem

I've never used it in PM.  However, I did the results when my sister took someone's advice to pour salt on fresh puppy urine on her carpet.  It rotted the carpet.

I don't know if it is as bad if it stays dry, but my patience level (low) couldn't tolerate it if it ruined all my hard work.  I would really have to beat myself up with a big stick.  Try explaining something like THAT to an insurance company...  ;-)

Sue

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#13 2010-11-30 08:10:43

Pelletor
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From: East Coast USA (mid Atlantic)
Registered: 2009-08-05
Posts: 32
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Re: A ridiculous problem

Ouch!  A rotted carpet and self-inflicted bruises too! 

That would be like rubbing salt in an open wound!  ;-)

Bob C.

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