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Newbie looking for some advice on a project

#1 2009-04-13 08:01:28

cmillet77
Member
Registered: 2009-04-13
Posts: 6

Newbie looking for some advice on a project

Hi all,
I'm looking to create a giant eyeball about 3 feet in diameter for use on a mutant vehicle project for Burning Man. We have an old ambulance we are trying to mutate into the Purple People Eater so one of the things is to make a large eye, horn, and wings among other things.  Paper mache sounds like it could be a viable option for some of the elements, but I need some experts (you!) to weigh in..  I'm just focusing on the eye for now.

Here are the requirements:
- needs to survive about a week in harsh outdoor desert environment.. hot 90 degree sunny days and 40 degree nights.  rain is highly unlikely but anything is possible.
- Fierce wind storms as bad as 50mph are possible so a good method for securing the eyeball to the vehicle is a must.  This is probably the biggest challenge?  That also means it cannot be flimsy..
- if possible, we'd like to put a bright LED floodlight inside to illuminate it from the inside out at night.  I don't know how translucent paper mache can be in a project of this type?  Especially if it needs to be thick in order to be strong?  I saw some examples online where somebody did this but I understand it might not be possible with this project. Alternatively, if we can paint it with UV reactive paints and use blacklights that is OK too.

Some other questions:

I found some weather balloons online that come in 3' diameter.. would this be a good armature to get the basic sphere shape going?

Should we use torn strips or pulp? maybe start with strips to get the basic shape going on the balloon and then switch to pulp for more thickness?  suggestions on the material to use?

What about paste?  Obviously having the end result be strong is number one priority.  I've read PVA glue with portland cement added works good?  I saw some posts about using wood glue.  Sounds like there is a lot of possible choices.

Thanks!

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#2 2009-04-14 00:44:46

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

Hello, and welcome to the forum!

From what I have seen of weather balloons, they are very thin and I suspect they would be difficult to work with.  A better choice might be a large beach ball, one of the really large ones.  You can find them described as being 48" in diameter, but you would need to verify if that is 48" diameter when inflated, or 48" diameter when flat, which would inflate to about 30".  If that would be large enough for your purposes, here is one from Oriental Trading:
http://www.orientaltrading.com/ui/brows … Beach+Ball

If something like that would serve your purpose, I would use the strip method for covering the ball.  I have used tracing paper (from a roll) to make a translucent ball, but it would be more expensive than a cheaper type of paper.  Another material to consider is old white bed sheets, torn in strips, rather than paper.

Mixing regular white craft glue half and half with water should be a good adhesive for this project, but you would need quite a bit.  But if you could find methyl cellulose adhesive (Elmer's Art Paste is probably the easiest to find and the cheapest), a 2-oz box would make a gallon of paste.  This stuff isn't meant to be thick and gooey, so don't panic when it appears to have a rather thin consistency.  it works just fine when mixed as directed.

The number of layers would depend upon the type of paper you use.  I'm thinking five or more layers.  Let it dry thoroughly and then deflate the ball a bit and press on the papier mache. If it doesn't seem strong enough, another two or three layers might help.

When it's strong enough and fully dry, paint it with acrylic paints.  A final coating of Varathane would probably help to strengthen it, and moisture-proof it as well.

Anchoring it against strong winds may be your biggest hurdle. If you can design a sort of cradle for it to sit in, and then use hot glue (or epoxy) extensively to attach it, you will be better off than just a small point of contact on a flat surface.  A cardboard collar + hot glue may do well, too.

If 55 mph winds are anticipated, a net is the only thing that may hold it down.  Do you happen to know any commercial fishermen?  Cover it and anchor the edges inside the car doors.  Nobody is going to be outside doing much in high winds in the desert.  Been there, hated it, blowing sand feels like needle darts.

If you make the wings from papier mache, I would try to find a way to make them removable, maybe with cotter pins, wire or long thin screws?  High winds will beat them up badly if you can't remove them.

Good luck with your project!  If you can, put some photos in the gallery here, and let us know they're there, okay?

Sue

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#3 2009-04-16 03:56:22

cmillet77
Member
Registered: 2009-04-13
Posts: 6

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

Thanks for the info. I will definately take pictures and document the progress.

I'll definately go with the beach ball idea..I was also concerned about the weather balloon being too flimsy.  ..or I was going to use an exercise ball I happen to already have.

Money is no object (within reason).. like if I had to spend $100 on this that is no problem.  I'm going to go with a 24"x50yd roll to start..only $20 online.

Found Elmer's art paste in 2oz box.. should I add anything to increase strength?  I keep seeing articles/posts about people mixing in additional stuff like wallpaper paste, wood glue, portland cement, etc to make it hard.  Of course, I'd like to keep it drying as close to clear as possible to maintain translucence.

I also hear something about linseed oil..should I bother?  You just mentioned Varathan as the [final?] step.. Is that enough?  Re, varathane: Is this what you mean?  https://www.hardwareworld.com/Gloss-Var … VE3M5.aspx

I wonder if they make UV reactive acrylic paints.. hmm!

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#4 2009-04-16 05:21:31

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

The exercise ball would be fine.  I thought of that after I posted.  They're a bit smaller, I think, maybe 27" diameter, but certainly do-able.

I wouldn't add anything to the Art Paste, mix as directed.  Yes, I know that people add all kinds of things to PM, including dog kibble, but for what you're doing, stick with the basics.

Plaster will make the PM much less translucent, and it sets up really quick.  This project is going to take more time than it would allow you.  Concrete is even worse.  Neither bounce, just crack or split.

Linseed oil is okay for some projects, but it takes a looooong time to dry.  It might also interfere with the finish results you're aiming for.  I would avoid it.

That Art Paste is clear, kind of like eggwhites, so it shouldn't interfere with the translucency of the paper, if you end up going that way.  Mix it up the day before you intend to start using it, for best results.  Using a plastic ball, you probably won't need to use any kind of release agent, either.  Just stick it right to the ball.  When you deflate the ball, the plastic will pull away from the PM.  Easy. 

Tip:  for spheres, try triangular pieces of paper instead of strips, as they lay down quite smoothly. Experiment with sizes, and when you find one that covers as much area as possible but wrinkles the least, make all of them that size, although perfection isn't required.  The smoother you can get it as you go, the smoother and more professional the finish will be.

For UV-reactive acrylic paints, you could start here:  http://www.glomania.com/clear_uv_paint.html    I have also heard that Michael's Crafts carries it, but ALL of them may not carry it, or all the time.  It's mostly popular at Halloween.

Yes, that Varathane is what I meant.  It isn't suitable for PM projects that are going to outdoors for long periods of time in wet weather (like a garden gnome out in the rain all winter), but it should last through Burning Man and then some.  I would do a small test piece of PM (just a 6x6" flat piece) using all the materials you plan to use, just to make sure you don't hit any unexpected surprises, esp with the finishes -- that would set you back.

I don't know exactly what you're doing with the PPE, but you might borrow a book from the library system that would give you ideas (you might have to get an Interlibrary Loan).  The book is called Make Something Ugly -- For a Change by Dan Reeder.  He's got a couple of other books out, too.  They're all "creature type" projects, as far as I've seen.  He has some step-by-step instructions for open mouths and teeth that are good.

Another book that I'm SURE you would need to get on an Interlibrary Loan would be 3-D Wizardry:  Design in Paper Mache, Plaster and Foam by George Wolfe.

Just in case of accidents, take a roll of clear packaging tape with you for repairs.  Duct Tape is NOT suitable for this!  ;-)

Have fun!

Sue

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#5 2009-04-22 01:27:45

cmillet77
Member
Registered: 2009-04-13
Posts: 6

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

Quick question: what is the difference between Elmer's Art Paste and the pre-made Glue-All?

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#6 2009-04-22 01:51:58

cmillet77
Member
Registered: 2009-04-13
Posts: 6

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

oh and if I use tracing paper..should I still put on a layer of emulsion paint per the tutorial before painting with acrylics?

When I search on google for emulsion paint, I get results called "asphalt emulsion"..is that the same thing?  If not, can you post a link to the right thing?

You can tell I'm not particular familiar with a lot of this stuff..

I have the tracing paper and white PVA glue..going to start project tonight using 85cm exercise ball as armature.  I'll use the triangle method you recommended and I will take pics of my progress.

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#7 2009-04-22 05:02:51

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

The difference between Glue-All and Elmer's Art Paste: 

Glue-All is just another PVA (polyvinyl acetate) white craft glue.  They're all basically the same, generic White Craft Glue.  It is a plastic-based synthetic adhesive.  It starts white, but dries clear.  Personally (others here will disagree), I don't use it for thicker multi-layer projects, or with thick pulp mache, as I think the outer 'skin' tends to dry first, sealing the inner area which stays damp.  But others have had good results.  I'm sure it would do fine for your project, as it won't be very thick.  Acrylic paints will stick well to it, as they have the same general type of base.

Elmer's Art Paste is methy cellulose (MC), an organic adhesive usually made from highly-processed cellulose (usually wood).  Mixed with water several hours or a day ahead of use, it is clear and dries clear. Being organic, moisture should have no problem migrating to the outer surfaces and evaporating for good drying.  It will also take acrylic paint well.

Depending on what you find and where you find it, the only difference may be the price for the fairly large amount that you will need. 

If you decide to go with the white craft glue, pour some into a disposable cup and see how watery it is.  Known brands are fairly thick and should be diluted about 50:50 with water, but some cheap (Chinese?) brands are quite watery on their own and probably wouldn't need as much dilution.  You just don't want it really watery (poor adhesion) or too thick (lumpy, more difficult to spread, dries slowly, may not dry completely in spots).

I suggested the Elmer's Art Paste for two reasons:  because one 2-oz container will make a gallon of adhesive.  You may not need the entire gallon, so you could make up just a quart or a half-gallon at a time.  Also, since it starts out clear, you wouldn't have any possible non-drying problems like you possibly could with the white craft glue.  Sometimes it doesn't dry completely in spots, and I THINK that if lit from within, the moist spots would show as darker spots.  But I've only used MC for projects lit from within, and it works very well.

"Emulsion paint" is the British term for latex wall paint.  Latex and acrylic wall paints are almost the same, and ARE the same for our uses here, and there is no problem with decorative acrylic paints sticking to them, as they are all basically the same material.

Your question about using the emulsion/latex paint is a good one.  I wouldn't do it for this particular project, due to your need for translucency.  Latex/acrylic paints are all opaque (solid), and I'm pretty sure all your hard work with the tracing paper might be blotted out with a solid type of paint.  As long as you're using white craft glue, once the ball is thoroughly dry, I would coat the whole thing with a layer of thinned white glue and let it dry, then start your decorative work.

TIP:  To speed drying, you could put it in front of a fan.  Once the ball has been removed from the sphere, you could place it in the sun to complete drying (inside, that was against the plastic ball). 

DO NOT put the papier mached ball in the sun with the plastic ball INSIDE! 

Due to the law of physics, the sunlight will heat the air inside the ball and it will expand, and the pressure can cause delaminating of the layers of your paper work.  I know from personal experience that this heating of the air in the ball is so strong that it WILL crack a 5/8" layer of concrete applied to the same type of ball.  I have PM'd a small play ball and then set it in the sun, and the sheer stresses pulled the paper apart and the strips became loose in various places.  I used MC for that experiment; had I used white craft glue, I suspect that the paper would have torn if there weren't weak spots that could pull the layers loose.

By the way, if you discover any new problems or good ideas or solutions, please post them here.

Sue

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#8 2009-04-24 19:02:47

cmillet77
Member
Registered: 2009-04-13
Posts: 6

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

Ok, so we started up the project using tissue paper and 50/50 diluted Elmer's Glue-All... I really wanted to use the art paste, but I couldn't for the life of me find it locally.  I'm going to buy a box online though.

So last night, did the first two layers and found it probably 90% dry by this morning..  Looks pretty good so far except I have a concern that it seems the paper mache is going to have a hard time breaking away from the exercise ball when we go to deflate it later.  Maybe it's just because I've only got a couple layers on so far, but it seems so well glued to the ball (I painted both sides of the strips with the adhesive) I can't see how it is going to gracefully pull away without destroying itself.  Will more layers help that?  Maybe we should have used a release agent?  If I need to start over, I'd rather do it now before we get too far along.  Time is in our favor.. I have a month or so to finish this project smile

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#9 2009-04-24 22:56:20

Alasdair
Member
From: Scotland
Registered: 2009-01-26
Posts: 23
Website

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

I think I might be tempted to start over and use a release agent, there's a danger of the whole thing collapsing if you deflate it without and the paper isn't layered thick enough ... given the size of the piece I think there's an increased likely hood of collapse.

Tinfoil's makes a quick, easy and mess free way of preventing the mache sticking to your ball smile

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#10 2009-04-25 00:42:53

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

Since you've got the time, why not just get one of those 8" vinyl play balls that are carried everywhere (including grocery stores), glue  just a four-inch patch of two or three layers of paper using the same stuff you're using on the big ball and let it dry.  Deflate when dry and see what happens.  Don't try to peel off the PM, deflate the ball.

If it doesn't stick to the play ball, it's not going to stick to the exercise ball.  Vinyl is vinyl.  White glue usually won't even stick plastic toys together -- you usually have to use super glue or epoxy.

But since you are going to have quite a bit of time and effort in the big ball, I would try the patch test on a small ball and go from there.

Sue

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#11 2009-04-29 02:24:15

skwirl
Member
From: Oklahoma City, OK
Registered: 2008-11-12
Posts: 34

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

Ok, I don't know if this will help any, but I thought I would share since it popped into my head lol. How about buying a buttload of those clear plastic spheres from the craft store, you know, the kind that come apart and you can put stuff inside. Put some rocks in some or fill some with plaster for weight and use those for the bottom pieces. Glue them all together around the floodlight in the center to form a rough eyeball shape. then cover with chicken wire? so that the light can still shine through, but will smooth out the eyeball shape, and will be a sturdy case for the eyeball innards. Then cover it with a cheap clear plastic paint cloth and mache over that just cuz it would be easier than macheing over chicken wire with a translucent paper.  After that I dont' have a clue lol. Sure am looking forward to seeing how you end up doing it though!

Last edited by skwirl (2009-04-29 02:27:51)

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#12 2009-05-06 15:15:18

dopapier
Moderator
From: UK
Registered: 2004-12-04
Posts: 754

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

My wife once made a very large 'goose egg' for a pantomime.  It involved many layers of paper as laminate.  It not only survived the show but lasted at the bottom of our garden for years - in a UK climate.
I agree with Alasdair about the release, though Sue (Catperson) is always a wealth of good sense.  Certainly to try the process on a smaller ball first is most wise.
If you do decide to wrap the ball in foil, you will need to secure it.  Masking tape is best for this; you'll probably need about three or four rolls.
For the layering, use strong paper - kraft or bond.  Newspaper just won't have the toughness.  I don't think you will be able to get strength at that size with translucency.
We wait with great interest to find out how you get on.
DavidO


I'm a PM addict

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#13 2009-05-25 06:00:40

lovely09
Member
Registered: 2009-05-25
Posts: 15

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

Then please let us know what happen to your first art.I agree to most of the advices here.Start from small for the first trial.

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#14 2009-06-01 23:10:53

cmillet77
Member
Registered: 2009-04-13
Posts: 6

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

I just wanted to give an update.. I tried using tracing paper + art paste and given the diameter of the ball, it was just too flimsy to maintain structure while trying to remove the ball from. 

I'm retrying the project this week, but I made a large amount of mache using the "hard mache" tutorial.  I am just going to try that with the art paste (minus the chalk & sawdust) this time using a release agent and see how it goes.  I'll be sacrificing the translucent nature for hardness and we'll just paint it in UV reactive paints and go with some blacklighting for effect.

Question: how much paper mache should I mix in with the art paste?  ..assuming I make a full batch with the 2oz of powder..which I think is 1 gallon.  I have several ziplock freezer bags full of this stuff to mix in.  I'm trying to figure out what consistency I should go for.

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#15 2009-06-07 22:00:36

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: Newbie looking for some advice on a project

Consistency is something you will have to play with.  It isn't going to be the same for all projects.  And you seem to be talking about pulp.  It takes a LOT of pulp to cover the kind of area you're talking about.  If you're working on a 26" (66cm) diameter ball, you talking about close to 15 sqft (1.4sq m) of area.

That much pulp is outside my area of experience.

Just a thought:  if you're doing this in relatively small patches, you might try adding some Plaster of Paris to the mix.  Just be aware that you are limited in your working time with the addition of this material.  And be aware that the weight will tend to rotate the ball so the weight is at the bottom, when you are wanting to work near the top.

Good luck!

Sue

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